Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

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Robert_Moriyama
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

Given the current 'religious-right' slant to American politics (and the near-universal political aversion to anything approaching human cloning), the situation in this story seems pretty plausible. Cloning of any human is pretty much illegal, but the wealthy and powerful have it done to get prestigious arm candy (even if they can only show 'it' off among like-minded peers). When their existence is found out, the clones are treated like objects rather than as human beings, and 'unclean' objects at that ...<br><br>Will human clones be the new blacks (pre-Emancipation), the new 'wetback domestic help', the new 'toy breed pets' -- expensive, publicly shunned but privately desired and exploited? (Viz. also the upcoming movie 'The Island', where clones are grown and sequestered ('The Truman Show'-style) until they are needed -- for spare parts).<br><br>Do we need fireworks and violence for a story to have 'impact'? (sez the guy whose stories usually have fight scenes and 'special-effects' magical spells)<br><br>Robert M.
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Daniel_Sosa »

One thing that struck me as, well, maybe a bit incongruous, was how articulate Marilyn was. Does that ring true? I only know her from how Hollywood presented her...

And then, sadly, this essentially well-wrought story about cloning and rights and, more specifically, the idea of multiple Marilyns got me thinking. Which typically does not net much of value, as you will see: Is clone-on-clone sexuality autoeroticism or incest?

Anybody? Bueller?

<br><br><br>I think most people have misconceptions about what cloning is and about what clones are. If you were cloned you would not be creating an identical version of you; you would be creating an identical version of your genes. Monozygotic or "identical" twins have matching genes but could differ in innumerable ways based on environmental factors. True, identical genes will handle the exact same stimuli identically but the world is not so homogeneous. It's absolutely not like that old Star Trek TNG storyline where the transporter creates two identical William Riker's who share the same memories and attitudes.<br><br>So if you were the leader of an emancipation movement more than likely you've developed the necessary diction.<br><br>And technically it would be homosexual incest, because you would be interacting with a being that was genetically related but organically independent of you.<br>
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Robert_Moriyama
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

Thanks for seeing it my way, Dan. and for the tantalizing question regarding same-source cloned sex. food for though, all you Vivid Image execs.
an apocalypse would have been appreciated in this story. even a clone rebellion a la i robot could have made for an excellent touch.

Lee
<br>Hey, he could do a movie -- no, a SERIES of movies. Planet of the Clones. Escape from the Planet of the Clones. Conquest of the Planet of the Clones. Watch as the all-volunteer army is brought to its knees by the attack of the Marilyn Monroe Brigade (They sort of wriggle along instead of marching. Doesn't cover a lot of ground, but who cares?) Then the Sean Connery Assassination Squad moves in to mop up, using only their right thumbs (the left thumbs would do too much damage).<br><br>So ... another vote for fireworks, violence, stuff blowing up real good. (Hey, Max Guevera blew up the Manticore labs to prevent the creation of any more transgenic supersoldiers (viz. Dark Angel) -- the Marilyns could stage an assault on the illegal cloning labs!)<br><br>Robert M.
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

To Mr Sosa,
Thanks for the input. Quite true my knowledge of cloning is limited to an osmotic understanding gained from pop culture. Alas, much of my knowledge is...

(As for my other query, you sucked the life out of what might have been a rip-roaring debate among the partially informed).

Dan E.
<br>Yeah, but think about it.  "Getting" twins is a common male fantasy (or is it just horny sitcom characters that think that way?); with clones, you could "get" n-tuplets.  Or watch them with each other.<br><br>What's that?  Jerry Falwell is on the other line?  What do you mean, 'he wants in on it'?<br><br>(This is all Mark Stanley's fault for invoking images of the woman who was, after all, the very first Playboy model.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.)<br><br>Robert M.
Last edited by Robert_Moriyama on May 30, 2005, 04:42:57 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Daniel_Sosa »

To Mr Sosa,
Thanks for the input. Quite true my knowledge of cloning is limited to an osmotic understanding gained from pop culture. Alas, much of my knowledge is...

(As for my other query, you sucked the life out of what might have been a rip-roaring debate among the partially informed).

Dan E.



<br><br>Aren't partially-informed debates the most fun? Perhaps it would have been a great Aphelion tangent to be remembered for all time. Alas.<br><br>A question I've always wondered is whether any hermaphrodites can get themselves pregnant. Would that be masturbatory, or heterosexual incest--or bisexual incest? If you cloned this very special person and made a whole race of androgynious Homo sapiens (perhaps their OWN race?) what kind of sexual/family behavior would develop between men, women, and the wild-cards? <br><br>Why weren't you screenwriting Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, Mr. Moriyama?<br>
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

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I'm going to avoid joining the Ménage à Marilyn discussion and focus on the story.<br><br><br>On cloning: As I understand it, at current technology levels the source cells used to make a clone have, in essence, a "time index." That is to say a clone is a clone of the cell at that point in it's life. I has no longer life expectancy than the original source, but it has to be born. This yields a duplicate that has to grow up, but will never live as long as the original, due to aging-induced flaws in the source cell. <br><br>This story seems to indicate that you can hatch out a celeb at whatever target age you want, without the mess of all those years of puberty & education. To do so, they would have to unlock the secrets of aging. How else could you dial back the clock to get a clone of a specific age?<br><br>If we can get people (or just parts) of any age... organ transplants are no longer a problem. Clone your own cells & make 'em younger. Going senile? Inject some 'new' brains in your noggin. Wrecked your liver? Just stick a new one in, etc. Such technology would make cloning both popular & also commonplace. I reject any argument that it could only be available to make whole clones for the super-rich. The rest of the world is simply too big a potential revenue stream to ignore; regular people would get parts.<br><br>Continuing the logic, if so many people would have cloned parts, why would whole clones be looked so down upon? What politician in his right mind would tell his partially cloned constituents that a whole person made the same way as their new eyes, or left arm (or whatever part they got) was less than human? Not a good way to be re-elected--or to get a doctor to give that Congressperson parts when he or she needs them later in life.<br><br><br>As such, I guess it would be safe to say that I didn't go for the premise of this tale. Still, looking at it as it was:<br><br>The setting didn't feel real to me. It simply wasn't drawn well enough for me to 'get it.' People go to a show in a gulag?? Is that right? Would that be some sort of non-traveling freak show, where the freaks are in prison? If they are so dangerous, why would someone go? If someone asked me to go to the Brown County Correctional Facility in Green Bay to see their rendition of The Pirates of Penzance, I'm telling them to stick it--no matter how great Ralph the Axe Murder is in his rendition of "Modern Major-General." I'm creeped out at the thought.<br><br>On character development, there wasn't much. Marilyn(a) was still the same outspoken she was at the beginning. The (nn) version wasn't really any different either. Perhaps a little more confident, but "basically the same" as she was. (It's hard not to turn these all into clone-based puns.) <br><br>On plot, Marilyn gives a speech & then talks in her dressing room. Not much else happens. If (a) could have given (nn) some secret, some thing that only she could have known, then the plot has more weight. Or if it followed (nn) for a longer time span, and put obstacles in her way... something for her to do, to overcome in getting in to see (a)... then this plot means more. This seemed to be just an opening movement, and did not seem to have a beginning, middle and end that a complete story needs.<br><br><br>Kudos for a world of clones that have to struggle for their rights. That's a very "human" plot and potentially a great way to illustrate "what is human." However, the lack of solid character development, rising action, and climax stole away any potential thunder this piece could have had.<br><br>Nate
Last edited by kailhofer on May 30, 2005, 10:58:49 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Daniel_Sosa
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Daniel_Sosa »

I'm going to avoid joining the Ménage à Marilyn discussion and focus on the story.


On cloning: As I understand it, at current technology levels the source cells used to make a clone have, in essence, a "time index." That is to say a clone is a clone of the cell at that point in it's life. I has no longer life expectancy than the original source, but it has to be born. This yields a duplicate that has to grow up, but will never live as long as the original, due to aging-induced flaws in the source cell.

This story seems to indicate that you can hatch out a celeb at whatever target age you want, without the mess of all those years of puberty & education. To do so, they would have to unlock the secrets of aging. How else could you dial back the clock to get a clone of a specific age?
<br><br>I've read about the "running clock" theory about our DNA but I don't think any of it is yet conclusive. Telomeres are a chromosomal feature whose gradually shortened lengths are associated with cell mortality, although even human cells do produce an enzyme Telomerase which adds to the lost length during the creation of new cells. <br><br>At age one, Dolly's Telomeres were 20% shorter than normal after being extracted from a six year-old sheep (and deprived of Telemorase in a culture for two generations). Despite that, the lung infection that killed her was not attributed to her cloning:<br><br>"Sheep can live to 11 or 12 years of age, and lung infections are common in older sheep, particularly those housed indoors. There is no evidence that cloning was a factor in Dolly contracting the disease," said Dr. Harry Griffin of the Roslin Institute.<br><br>I think of Girl's Best Friend using less sophistication than you describe in cloning Marilyn Monroe. People have cloned organisms at this point in history but, as far as I'm aware of, nobody has successfully bred an entire, viable human organ, save for skin. Matching brain patterns just makes it more unfeasible. If you want organs you're going to have to get them the hard way.<br><br>Would people go to a show in a gulag? I think it's not entirely impossible especially with today's insidious reality TV and celebrity worship. It depends on who is profiting. But you're right in that the writer may not have painted a large enough picture of the culture at hand.<br><br>The structure of the piece was more of a chapter from a novella than a self-contained short story, but I don't wish to bash the writer over the head with what was already said. I think the body of the story worked on a certain level and the ideas held my interest all the way through.<br>
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Re: Girl's Best Friend by Mark Stanley

Post by Megawatts »

Nice story but I think the ending could have been <br><br>better. <br><br><br>Cloning is a hot topic now, and I think we have<br><br>only skimmed the surface. Twenty, thirty years from<br><br>now, the techology we learn from cloning will help in <br><br>many areas of medicine. <br><br><br>Too bad the author didn't have a JFK clone with her!!
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