Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

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Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

I know this story a little too well to give much of a critque.<br><br>I'm glad you switched it around so that Robert came up with the plan instead of Jehova. It made for a better read this way.<br><br>Other than that bit & word choice edits, I didn't see that you followed my advice all that much. (And I won't post any of those comments unless you want me to.)<br><br>Perhaps not listening to me will turn out to be a good thing. We'll see what others say.<br><br>In either case, it's still a bold piece and an interesting read. Glad you stuck it out.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by bcrossland »

Great story, enjoyed Sociology Experiment as well. Both interesting stories. Very different approach. Keep up the good work.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>b
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

This one puzzles me. It was always Robert who came up with the plan. I didn't change that a bit.
<br>To steal a phrase from the movie Airplane!, I picked a hell of a week to quit drinking. :) Ignore that.<br><br>Most of those things about Elvis and the appearances in the Pantheon are not that big a beef.<br><br>This is a difficult thing to state, so allow me to stumble my way through. The saying of it may change my point by the time I reach the end...<br><br>The first story was bold, with a goal (as I saw it) of dethroning God and empowering Man. As such you created a storyline where that worked: God was all smoke and mirrors for a sociology experiment.<br><br>This story had an even more ambitious goal: re-throning God.<br><br>Well, why do that? What purpose does that serve for this fictional universe where god is just a slob like one of us, just a stranger on the bus? (I digress.) None, that I can see. The Mare continues as it was, regardless of whether or not Jehova sits at the bar. This universe doesn't need another god any more than it needs any other patron. <br><br>Even though many don't agree with me, I say there's a human story in every tale. However, the human story here does not seem to be between any of these characters. It seems to be between you and the tale you've written.<br><br>You've said that you felt Robert had more of a story to tell. Here, he needs to write a paper, and then needs to find a way to stay alive. Coincidentally, Wishbone needs to write a story, but how does one top Sociology Experiment? Answer: bring god back.<br><br>So, you crafted a story where the series of events transpire in a place you knew of where deification was possible. Ha-Ha! You've reinvented God. You're a smart cookie, congratulations.<br><br>Now, I think we all want to tell a great story. Well, what's a great story? I think it's one where you take an engaging character, give that character a difficult challenge that demonstrate hardships that character experiences while trying to set things right. Then, in that character's worst moment, he, she, or it draws upon something they learned during those hardships that allows the situation to be resolved. Maybe the resolution kills the character, or maybe he, she, or it lives happily ever after. As long as it happens in an interesting and dramatic way, the reader is satisfied. However, if we're really lucky as authors, it's resolved in such a way that the reader almost believes they thought of it themselves because they were that into the story.<br><br>Using that definition (which I largely stole from Robert Silverberg), there's a problem straight off. Robert Landis isn't a very engaging fellow. He's a student killing time in bars until he's got enough of an idea to write a paper. Previously, all he had done was thumb his nose at the foolish people of earth for believing in a god that was a phony. He was a whistle-blower to people who didn't want to hear it. <br><br>I read the first story. He didn't seem to be pursuing some noble purpose. He really seemed to want to show people that they were idiots for believing in god. That, as such, is a perfectly allowable way to behave. He had free speech, and he exercised his rights--but shouldn't expect to be popular for it.<br><br>I don't find anything to draw me to care emotionally about this character. Here, three religious men are out to kill him. That doesn't connect with me. He hangs out in a bar all the time. Again, not my scene. He happens to know God. I can't say the same. <br><br>The only way I could see for Robert to become a gripping character is for him to seek redemption. If he were guilty for his previous acts and trying to right his own wrong (not a moral judgment, I mean as he would see it), that I could relate to. <br><br>But he never seeks redemption. He's along for the ride in the plotline that brings Jehova back to godhood. Mostly, he's confused (which I can relate to, but that's not gripping). There's no hardship. There's no special effort by him to do anything about it by himself. He gets scared, stuffed down a dumbwaiter, and then stands around without any real risk to himself and watches while Jehova convinces the Holies to mend their ways in the disconcerting Pantheon room.<br><br>As such, the story never touches me on a human level. It's interesting, but never engaging. I don't finish this story thinking, "Oh, good for Robert. He deserved for things to work out like that."<br><br>Hopefully, this makes sense, but I say Robert didn't need something to happen to him to make him a complete character. Instead, Wishbone needed to have a story written, and that's a no substitute for me as a reader. This is what I was trying to say in those comments at the end of the file I gave you, but I don't think it came across well.<br><br><br>Now, I see things differently than most, and I don't want to take away from a bold effort. This is written after a definite style of Mare stories, and will probably go down as one of the best on a short list. However, I just don't think it was as good a human story as it could have been.<br><br>Again, hopefully that makes sense.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

Damn Nate, you don't beat about the bush, do you? Yeah! Game on! ;D
<br>Thankfully, I know you enjoy a good discussion. Plus, I believe you'd rather hear exactly what I thought rather than me blowing smoke. <br><br>
Actually, when I started out on this story, I had no such goal in mind. Originally, the working title of this story was "Murder #1", and called for Robert and Jehova to fake their own deaths in order to escape the three holies. Then Bill Wolfe wrote "Where Angels Fear To Tread", wherein he kindly defined the rules of godhood in the Mare universe. Dan helped me to see that the original plot for my story wasn't very good, and I decided to change it, using Bill's new rules. Now, Robert and Jehova would indeed seek refuge in the Pantheon room, where they would meet the real Jehova, the god, who had been created by the faith of all the followers resulting from the sociology experiment on Earth. After a while, I got to thinking about the rules and their ramifications. I reasoned that a god would be created only if the faith had no existing focal point. But in this case it had one, Jehova, the sociology professor. And so finally, I ended up with the plot the story now has. So you see, even though it seems very thought out, it's actually just the way things turned out. I didn't plan it this way from the beginning.
<br>Well, regardless of how it came to be, the net effect is the same, isn't it? It still wound up being a story about re-throning God, or so it seemed to me.<br><br>
True, but many Mare stories don't really impact the universe as such. They merely utilize the Mare Inebrium as a backdrop for whatever story is told. Unlike Nightwatch, where every story is deeply rooted in the universe, and serves to further develop that universe, as well as a continuing storyline. But Deus does actually impact the Mare universe quite a bit. One of the things I wanted to accomplish (once I had the plot established) was to provide a proper description of the Pantheon room, something no one had done before. Also, I wanted to explain Elvis' presence there. I think I accomplished both of these things. Also, several of the characters are deeply rooted in the Mare universe. Max, Trixie, the Reever and Elvis are all existing characters.
[snip]
I never intended Robert to be a gripping character. He's not the focal point of either story, he's just the medium through which it is told. Just as a war correspondent doesn't have to be a soldier, and a sports commentator doesn't have to be an athlete. Robert is an uniteresting guy who's had interesting things happen to him. I don't personally identify with Robert either.
[snip]
I'd say it depends on what you're trying to accomplish with the story. Neither story was ever intended to touch anyone on an emotional level, only on an intellectual one.
<br>I have to admit to never having read a war correspondent's story, but I have seen a few documentaries about the correspondents in WWII. As I understand them, such correspondents didn't paint themselves into the stories they were telling as characters, but instead told the stories of the GIs around them. They would focus on their hardships, or endearing traits, their struggles--human stories, rather than about troop movements, descriptions of the latest tank, or the weave of the curtains in Patton's headquarters. <br><br>As someone who has read a few Mare stories (7 or 8 of the 60), I may be interested in an intellectual discourse about these places and characters, and therefore I may read on for that reason alone. <br><br>However, published writers don't write for themselves. If they did, their story would still be in a dusty notebook or file on their own computer and nowhere else. Instead, this was published here, in the hopes that others would read it, and perhaps enjoy it as well. Following that pseudo-logic, you hoped to make a connection with readers, if for no other reason than to keep them paging down until they reached the end (because it hurts when they don't finish your story).<br><br>If you want to connect with them, then a story can't just be an exploration of possibilities. One precludes the other. This isn't an essay. It's a story. The reader has to have a reason to want to read on, and I think the only real, strong connection one can make with a story's audience (and thereby guarantee they're going to read on) is an emotional one.<br><br>
Overall, I have to say that I pretty much agree with everything you say Nate. I think the problem is that my intentions behind the story did not match your expectations of it.
<br>I'd perhaps change "expectations" for "hopes," but yes, that could well be so.<br><br>
I want to comment on one more thing. In your original comments for the story (that you sent me personally), you commented a lot on my use of present tense. I just want to say that most instances of it in the story are quite deliberate. Yes, the story is told in the past tense, but it is also told in the first person. Given that combination, the use of present tense is quite valid on occasion. For instance, the difference between "I didn't know" and "I don't know" can be the difference between "I found out later" and "I still haven't a clue".
<br>You may have to check with Jeff, since my English degree may be a bit rusty, but I don't believe that is the correct usage. In order for those present tense bits to be there, you'd need a definite running narrative voice-over, or asides where the tense could all jump to the future, instead of telling the story from the past.<br><br>As an example, there was a western movie starring Dustin Hoffman that came out in 1970 called Little Big Man. The storyline was supposed to be that Hoffman's character was recounting the events of his life to a biographer. We as an audience would see the asides when they showed the old Hoffman, and heard his voice-overs as the younger Hoffman acted out what happened. The voice-over character could use present tense, such as to say "and I never did find out... etc." and that worked. But that's not the same as seeing it all through the younger character's eyes and switching tense back and forth.<br><br>It is true that you started with that as an opener, but once the "story" began, I never got that sense of "voice-over separation" that would make this work.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

... Yes, there is an Al Majius story titled "A Matter of Degrees". It's the third story in the series, and the first to indicate that accidentally reviving Aaron Morgenstern will have major consequences.<br><br>http://www2.aphelion-webzine.com/shorts ... br><br>viz. <br>http://www.pathcom.com/~bmoriyam/Materi ... htm<br>for links to the stories in chronological order and brief (and not so brief) synopses.<br><br>Robert "Miss a chance for plug? Never!" M.
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

Well, yes. It's just that, all your comments put together gave me the impression that you thought I had planned it all from the beginning, in order to demonstrate my superior cleverness (gee, I sound like an evil genius). Like I'm some sort of Vegas magician: "See, here's God. *Poof!* He's gone! Now watch this. *Poof!* He's back!"
<br>You mean, your *not* an evil genius? :)<br><br>
Yes, okay. I had to find a few examples, and maybe they don't stand up to closer scrutiny. But you know what I meant, right?
<br>Yes.<br><br>
"Published writers don't write for themselves", you say. I gather from your recent posts in Administrivia about writing styles that you've learned that the hard way. But that rule does not apply here at Aphelion, at least not to the extent that it does in the paying markets. The very fact that my story has actually been published is proof of that...
<br>On the contrary, I think you prove my point. If you truly wrote only for yourself, this story would still be on your own computer and nowhere else. Instead, you sent it to Dan for his consideration. Therefore, you felt it might be a story others could like, or at least Dan. <br><br>Once anyone else comes into the equation, you're not writing for yourself anymore. It may have been to your own standards, but not for yourself.<br><br>
Take Larry Niven's Ringworld, for an example. All the characters in that novel are too esoteric (maybe not exactly the word I'm looking for, but close enough) for us to properly identify with them. And the things that happen to them are definitely not things that could ever happen to any of us. Still, that novel is immensely popular. Why? Because it explores possibilities like no other novel has ever done. It's the ultimate "playground of the mind".
<br>It may be famous, but I haven't read it yet, sorry. I inherited over 2000 books from my grandfather, and have over 1500 to go before I look for anything new.<br><br>As for the tense thing, perhaps it would be best to wait for another opinion.<br><br>
Hmm, I don't think it would need any sort of "separation". It's told in the past tense, which, as I said, is equivalent to a permanent voice-over.
<br>I never saw it as a voiceover beyond the opener. I took that as the present tense part, and after that, I felt I was reading what Robert experienced, as it happened. To have present tense comments inserted into as I thought it was, it would have needed something that showed they were from the present tense narrator, such as putting those in italics.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

Deus Ex MachinaWell.  Ain't this somethin'?

We finally get a "real" God and most of the comments are about the tense of the story?  Present tense.  .  .present perfect.  .  .past perfect.  .  .who really gives a fecal discharge?  I don't.

Bill
<br>Gosh, a discussion about the narrator's voice in a story. What the hell were we thinking? No one would possibly want to know about that! :-[<br><br>Everyone else just wants to hear how well the Pantheon room is described. Now, that's the kind of thing that must be really important to telling a story. :-/<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

There were comments to the effect of "modern stories need emotional content because writing is for other readers to read". This was a surprise, because I thought the whole "Intellectual Puzzle!" "Emotional Content" disussion was among the first serious disagreements about the purpose of classic hard science fiction. "At the cost of characters barely held togher by their own tendons, the author's real intent was to explore intellectual puzzles posed by the scientific content". Thousands of books have passed this test, so we could judge Wishbone's story on that line. Then the comments about "the ending wasn't deep enough" would be correct/not correct, addressing the puzzle/situation proposed.

The movement to add emotional depth, when done correctly on the previous story Foundation (pun intended) DOES make for an even higher quality offering. Then we would be in the realm of "yes, the "1940's Golden Age" eschewed human content, mostly because the art was not yet developed at that level, but sixty years later, it is now a standard element to consider."
<br>I'm not sure I understood what you meant by this, either.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

The problem wasn't that the story was a satire, but rather it seemed that it started as a more traditional story and was later converted to satire. At least, that's the feel I got from it. Others may disagree.
<br>You saw it as satire, and Wishbone says he meant it that way, but I never saw that in it.<br><br>What was it in the story that made you think along those lines?<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

I would like to offer a challenge to Wishbone over this. As much as I liked the story (and I did), I would love to see you expand the God/Jehovah character after His deification to really try to encompass what God (as it says on the label) should be like.
[snip]
The Challenge is this: If you would care to rewrite your story, I'm pretty sure that Robert would run them--the new and the old--side-by-side so that we could see how a writer might alter a story based on well-intended feedback.

If you do this, I will do the same for any story of my own that you care to pick (I think I have six in the Mag, so far, with another biggy due in June).

The point of all of this is to see if reader feedback can really make a story better for other readers than it was when the author submitted what he thought was the 'final' draft.
<br>If you're both going to try this challenge, I'd like to suggest "Customer is Always Right" from you. That and this one are Mare stories, I critiqued them both, and pointed out a lack of emotional connection with both the main characters. As you'll recall, I mentioned that I felt Vlad's performance came off a little flat & needed to show his sorrow more.<br><br>Changing things around to show more character development could be a formidable task for both of you, and could potentially change the plots of both stories a good deal.<br><br>Just my two cents, but "Deus Ex" vs. "Customer" sounds like a pretty even challenge to me.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by kailhofer »

I snagged this from Wikipedia (apparently, my favorite site for reference)...
<br>I also checked the wikipedia as soon as I saw your first post. You left out the part that said<br>
Satire is a literary technique of writing or art which exposes the follies of its subject (for example, individuals, organizations, or states) to ridicule, often as an intended means of provoking or preventing change.
<br><br>Definitions are nice, but you didn't actually answer my question. <br><br>What did you see in this story that said "satire" to you and not something else? The fact that I had to ask should demonstrate that it is not blatently self-evident, as your post seems to imply.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Deus Ex Machina by Wishbone

Post by Megawatts »

The story was easy to follow, and the characters came alive to me. An easy story to follow with characters that come alive is a must for me, and I’m sure others as well.<br><br>I couldn’t find anything to complain about, except a few grammar points, but nothing serious because this guy can write!!! <br><br>Some religious wacko’s might take offence at such a story, but, well, that’s their problem!<br><br>What a creative story! Really, very creative!<br><br>When I read a story like this one and learn that English is not his native language, I start to feel rather small. English is my only language and he has a much better command of it than I do. <br><br><br><br>
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