Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

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kailhofer
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Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

There's so much in this story it makes my brain hurt, trying to take it all in.<br><br>Over 15,000 words of alternate-universe pirate banter, barbarism, and broadsides. There's enough action here to satisfy a theater full of teens for hours, but some of them may boggle at more disconnected names and places thrown at them than in a month of Sunday school. <br><br>Instead of trying to squeeze what I guess to be three hundred pages of backdrop and story ideas into a Reader's Digest condensed version, I'd have recommended picking a part of this tale to tell, like a chapter. Escaping from the island siege would have worked as one, or trying to kill the Folk brothers as an even better choice. That one didn't need to have all the backstory to be dramatic.<br><br>All the names and places thrown at the reader is just overload. For world building, I say pick the Helldiver's Ghost, or an Inn to play out a story built around that setting. <br><br>Place names and a menu list of characters are a poor exchange for good detail. I'd have loved to know what the ship really looked like, and what it felt like to be in it during a battle. What smells would assail your senses, and what horrors would be revealed? What does the weight, or the worn grip, of a cutlass feel like when you run some lubber though? Does the deck run so red with blood that sailors slip for lack of traction? What do any of these Western, non-native weapons really look like? Where did all this "Western" modern technology come from? What else beside the captain's scaly bird-thing are different than in our universe?<br><br>To appreciate where Omen is going with his character arc, it would have helped to know more about him--his internal makeup, hopes and drives. Rodonovan too could have played more, so that we could get a sense of him too, before we see his grand vision at the end.<br><br>I don't mind being in the dark for a while when I story unfolds, but I felt that I couldn't quite catch up the whole while through. Even at the end, I was still trying to figure out where they were going, and why. Were they hunting or hiding? The text said both.<br><br>Mixed marks for dialogue. Things like "womyn" and "Piptillion’s pogues" were great, and sounded very pirate-like. The line “Apparently Miller Folk was some kind of activist, pursuing some fundamentalist Western religious nonsense.” leapt out at me as something Omen would not say in his vernacular. There were other bits that did not fit, as well, side by side with good buccaneer bandy. <br><br><br>Don't get me wrong. There was a lot of good stuff in this story. However, I think it would have been better to narrow the focus and expand the characterization. I'd save what is here as overhead view of this war, but pick out scenes to turn into full stories by themselves.<br><br>Nate<br>
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

Ouch, the newcomer gets panned.... In light of this essentially untempered negative critique & the fact that no one else has contributed an opinion, it would be useful to know what it was that the editor(s) who accepted the story saw in it that warranted its inclusion in the current issue.
<br>This issue will be up for another couple of weeks, so I'm sure someone else will comment sooner or later, and more than likely will disagree with me. Most do. <br><br>Every writer is protective of their story. However, I hope that "untempered" meant that no one else offered a differing opinion, and not that it was raw and unbalanced, as in metallurgy. I review every story on professionalism, setting, character development, plot credibility, and dialogue (criteria I lifted off an online writer's workshop). There were items I thought were good.<br><br>And, I might add, "newcomer" didn't have much to do with it. I believe I've been more critical of Robert M. than anyone else, and he was writing here long before me. (If only he would write better... ;)) <br><br>Keep your chin up.<br><br>Nate<br>
Last edited by kailhofer on November 22, 2004, 08:27:38 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

I know you're joking, but that's certainly not where I'm at.
<br>No. By all means, please do.<br><br>My own writing is by no means perfect, and I would not critique others had I not first offered stories for review, one in April and two August. Witness "Just Another Day at the Office" in August and the subsequent drubbing I received by professional author Elizabeth Bear in the Lettercol discussion. I was crispy fried, golden brown after that one.<br><br>My fuzzy, too-early-in-the-morning point is that everyone's input is worthwhile, regardless of any level at which they may put themselves, so give yourself some credit. I can only speak for the voices in my own head :), but one opinion is just that--one opinion, not gospel from above. Everyone else will have their own views. Trust in that, and let your voice be heard.<br><br>Nate
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

Dan<br><br>Glad to see you've recovered from Nate's initial comments. You should see what he says about my stories ... and you should be really glad that Wishbone hasn't chimed in, because he is famous for point-by-point deconstruction of flaws in logic, grammar, style, etc., etc.<br><br>Personally, I found the story a lot of fun to read -- a good Bruckheimer movie (as opposed to the BAD Bruckheimer movies) on one level, with the beginnings of some political and religious wrangling and hints of the complex history of this world whirling around with all the other details. "Pirates of the UnCaribbean", with what turns out to be the equivalent of late 20th century weapons and propulsion systems thrown in ...<br><br>Actually, it took me a while to realize that the 'Western' technology was as advanced as it turned out to be -- 'sea wasps' turning out to be missiles, FABs (not to be confused with the 'A-OK' equivalent from Thunderbirds) turning out to be jet-propelled Fast Attack Boats with machine guns ... The mix of magic (used for communication in place of radio?), exotic creatures, modern weapons, and a buccaneer culture reminded me of Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East (where the world is magic-based medieval / renaissance, but odds and ends of a lost tech-based culture pop up now and them). (At least I think it's a Saberhagen series I'm thinking of ...)<br><br>The use of the term 'womyn', although one commentator thought it sounded like pirate lingo (maybe because that's how Popeye would pronounce it) seemed odd to me, because it was the non-sexist spelling promoted some decades ago (taking the 'man' out of the word and replacing it with something artificial).<br><br>I, for one, would like to see more of this world. Of course, as Omen and friends go West, we'll have a whole new environment to confuse and amaze us, but we'll manage to muddle through somehow.<br><br>(Re: Nate's comments -- he almost ALWAYS complains that descriptions do not provide enough sensory impressions. John R. Murray's Nightwatch story in this issue has fun with that, using it as an excuse for some banter about 'exhaust gases' resulting from some good Russian cuisine ...)<br><br>Robert M.
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

Yes, I do see that Nate is fixated on description, which I concur is fundamental to stories driven in large part by world building. However, given the length of these stories in general, the kind of space required for vibrant description can present problems. The plot will suffer if we're interrupted by descriptions for everything and from every "sensory perspective." I think readers, especially of sci-fi/fantasy, construct quite a bit of their own imagery anyway. The challenge then is to appease Nate's hunger for such description without bogging down. That makes for a great writing exercise.
<br>If it inspires another to write, I can live with the apparently popular misconception that I live for full sensory input in every single paragraph. Go ahead and try it. I will use the same set of criteria as I did for this one to review it.<br><br>Frankly, knowing that all the senses are checked off in the course of a whole story is good enough for me. Occasionally feel a texture. Wrinkle a character's nose at a bad odor. Hear a creak in the floorboards, and so forth. Just so they're in there somewhere before the story ends. It makes things better. Honest.<br><br>In my opinion, no stories should be "about" world building. Stories should be "about" characters trying to solve a problem. World building should only set the stage for the "human" drama or comedy that is to follow.<br><br>
As for world building, you can't build one in the space of a short story. [snip] For the size of the stories being told here, I think the best approach is world building by implication and let the readers' imaginations do the rest.
<br>Woah! Stop the presses.<br><br>Creating worlds is a basic building block of every item that appears in Aphelion--novella, short story, or even poem. <br><br>Are you saying that something that small can't build a believable world? I think that this month has an excellent example that argues against your point: Greg Guerin's "We Can Remake You". (Take a bow, Greg.)<br><br>I complimented him on his world building (and that he used all the senses). Sure, I thought he could have added more description, but I still thought it was completely believable world--even though the characters, setting, and plot by themselves were odd and alien. Other writers beside myself thought it was a good enough setting to make it a series, and it was only 6,100 words.<br><br>Certainly, showing is better than telling, but you have to include enough description in the showing to build a good, solid world. Learning where to draw the line is the trick, and it takes practice.<br><br>
The confusion/frustration registered by every reader of SWORDS regarding the plethora of names/locales is interesting to me. I've been reading epic fantasy for years now, and the one thing I've learned is how to distinguish the important characters and places from those that are not relevant (at least not yet). I let all of those extraneous details wash over me and just steep, knowing that at some point some of them will return, and return with the appropriate information so I can make sense of them in the context of an epic storyline. I simply don't sweat it and in fact that hard-to-grasp glut of information is part of the world building for me and I enjoy it.
<br>Well, good that it works for you, but you have to consider your audience, no matter where a story appears. You have to ask yourself, are the conventions used in my story something the readers of this webzine, magazine, or anthology are used to and will they accept them? Reader's already have a lot asked of them: you want them to accept your world as true, like your characters, invest interest in your plot, and, above all, keep reading.<br><br>Therefore, it behooves us as writers to make it easy for them to do so. An entertaining story will stretch an audience's threshhold of acceptability, and then we as writers can go for something artistic or out of the norm, but you've got to choose carefully what your audience will buy and what it won't. <br><br>There's not a ton of epic fantasy like you describe that appears here. I'd like to think that readers here are more forgiving than most, but it still boils down to knowing your audience.<br><br>Nate
Last edited by kailhofer on November 26, 2004, 12:59:33 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

Nate and I disagree about the concept of world building (or maybe not, I'm not sure). No, I'm not saying a short piece can't evoke a believable world. But is that world building? [snip] World building to me is creating, well, a believable world, from its geology and topography to its religious, cultural, economic, and political systems.
<br>Our views may not be so different.<br><br>I'm more than willing to discuss this subject, but before I hijack this discussion... I'd like to urge anyone who has not commented on this story to do so. Ignore my pontification until after you've put in your $.02 about the story.<br><br>What do I think world building is?<br>Simply put, world building is the creation of a physical universe in which to set a story. Said "world" may be as large as an entire star system, or as small as a ledge on the side of a mountain. <br><br>Speculative fiction, by definition, is based on rational extrapolation of what the world could be like if something were different. Therefore, a SF world must be based on principles and rules, which is why readers tend to nitpick--finding slips like the lengths of the tunnels in Nightwatch: Cardenio last month. The readership expects those rules to be there, even if they don't know what they are yet. Further, readers expect the world to be the same as their current world until shown otherwise. <br><br>Taking the setting of the ledge as an example, put two mountain climbers on that ledge. The average reader can make that transition just fine, and will make assumptions to fill in the gaps until differing information comes along: Perhaps one of them is an alien. Or perhaps the mountain is on another planet. Maybe gravity is low, and they just jumped there. Perhaps they're really superheroes and they stopped there for lunch. Then again, maybe it's a forbidden mountain, where no one is to go, lest they incur the wrath of some monster or higher power.<br><br>In that focused setting the writer must reveal the physical laws of the universe, any relevant social or political undertones, levels of technology, and descriptions of the characters & their gear. That's the world of the story.<br><br>Generally, a description of the mountain's location in relation to other spots is unimportant until the story changes to a second place (either through moving the story there or perhaps a flashback). The writer may know Mt. Badnews is next to the Ever-Flowing Well of Fruit Punch, but unless some part of the story happens there, readers don't need to know that (or necessarily want to know that). Likewise, extraneous facts about the character's origins, clan relationships, skills at swordplay, etc., are not needed--unless those items cause a problem for or invoke a relevant reaction in the other climber. All those extra bits overload the reader, and take away from the impact of the main storyline.<br><br>As a supporting argument, I'd like to point everyone to a SFWA page on world building:<br>http://www.sff.net/people/SASwann/text/wb.htm<br><br>If the contention is that you have to show a whole world to be "world building," then I disagree with that. I feel that the more conventional sense of the term is that which I've described above. <br><br>I'd fully agree that not everything has to be described and the reader can infer some details, but I don't have a good sense of "world building by implication" and what that means. Perhaps you could explain your view?<br><br>Nate<br>
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by Robert_Moriyama »

In the context of this story, we start with what appears to be a Caribbean Buccaneers (Disneycorp warned me about abusing one of their trademarks ... brrrr) milieu, aside from the source of the leather used for sheaths and hilt-wrapping. This automatically evokes whatever assumptions the reader may have about the technology, language, culture, and economy of such a setting, whether it be from Treasure Island, Douglas Fairbanks (Sr. or Jr.) movies, or whatever. In this sense, then, a lot of how this world works is 'implied' by the language and details that are given.<br><br>As the story progresses, we begin to see the differences between our assumed / implied world and this one: animals (mini-dragons instead of parrots?) and technology that don't fit in with the Caribbean Buccaneers scenario. Again, this causes us to adjust our assumptions: it is 'implied' (or we infer) that this is another planet or alternate dimension, where 20th and 21st Century weapons and other technology are available despite the otherwise 18th(?) Century trappings. The references to 'Western' weapons (which seem to be the more advanced types) 'imply' that there may be another culture closer to our own modern world co-existing with the Buccanneer culture in the Myriads.<br><br>The underlying clash of cultures (and religions) between the Myriadians (islanders / buccaneers / 18th Century economy) and the Westerners (mainland dwellers / aggressively religious / 21st Century technology and maybe economy) provides the basis for what could be a long and interesting series ...<br><br>IMHOP*, anyway.<br><br>(*That's 'in my House of Pancakes', of course. My opinions are never humble.)<br><br>Robert M.<br><br>
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Re: Swords in the Fire by Dan Edelman

Post by kailhofer »

By the way, Dan, I don't know if anyone has formally told you this, but judging from what I've seen so far in the Lettercol...

Welcome...welcome my friend to the Brotherhood/Sisterhood of the Usual Suspects! :)
<br>Using that motif, shouldn't that be 'Lineup' of Usual Suspects?<br><br>Geez. Next Jeff will be showing him the secret handshake. :)<br><br>Nate
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